tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post1348074131057543997..comments2024-01-07T15:37:23.362+01:00Comments on Drums & Shakos: Orders in Wargame rules (Horse & Musket)Sergiohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09620016305755247567noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-66950772420177177452013-04-04T12:55:09.968+02:002013-04-04T12:55:09.968+02:00Steve,
one of my last post was on this topic (Mu...Steve, <br /><br />one of my last post was on this topic (Multiple Turns Orders), what do you think about it?Sergiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09620016305755247567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-82096108203759567542013-04-03T20:02:48.427+02:002013-04-03T20:02:48.427+02:00I think Dale has hit the nail on the head there. M...I think Dale has hit the nail on the head there. Many rule sets allow us to chop and change rules somewhat at the drop of a hat dependant upon what WE are seeing developing on the table top. Perhaps a better way to represent our 'orders' to our formations would be to 'fix' our commands on a certain order for X amount of moves? So for instance a force under 'Attack' orders must do so for the next 'X' (perhaps 2-3?) moves?<br />Battlescalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530786317286215390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-88467845022446372472013-03-29T11:05:33.011+01:002013-03-29T11:05:33.011+01:00Dale,
you comment is right on target. A system th...Dale, <br />you comment is right on target. A system that forces you to give multi-turn orders creates many interesting situations, a nice fog of war and strongly limits "wiggles". I tried it (and wrote at least 10 pages on the subject) taking inspiration from games like RoboRally and Wings of War (and its ancestor - Blue Max). It could work, but IMHO only in non linear games, i.e. those with a grid. I'll write a post about it.<br />Thank you Dale!Sergiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09620016305755247567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-89601071310765548542013-03-29T00:32:48.507+01:002013-03-29T00:32:48.507+01:00The problem is one because largely rules have you ...The problem is one because largely rules have you give orders for a TURN and not an ATTACK. If you had to give multi-turn orders for a planned ATTACK, you would not have so many false arguments to create wiggle room.<br /><br />Interesting set of posts.Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13667428218897971037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-8429430319273594612013-03-28T23:34:05.540+01:002013-03-28T23:34:05.540+01:00Steve,
if you give Drums & Shakos Large Battl...Steve, <br />if you give Drums & Shakos Large Battle a go, you'll see how I represented this on a tabletop, i.e. giving the column a clear advantage for moving but not for the Approach-Close Combat procedure. This way you must carefully plan when you open your columns before the approach. As an alternative, you can attack in column but when the enemy line has been softened before (maybe by some artillery fire?).Sergiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09620016305755247567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-29354959283887552152013-03-28T20:47:19.442+01:002013-03-28T20:47:19.442+01:00Interesting stuff Sergio..... Now back to how we b...Interesting stuff Sergio..... Now back to how we best represent this on our tabletop!Battlescalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530786317286215390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-48411619000576062432013-03-28T16:53:15.566+01:002013-03-28T16:53:15.566+01:00Steve,
as many recent historians have demonstrate...Steve, <br />as many recent historians have demonstrated, the myth of "column vs. line +1" typical of most wargames of the '80s and '90s, was in great part false. If you read Alessandro Barbero's "The Battle (Waterloo)" one of the most appreciated books on this battle, you'll find - in particular when he talks about D'Erlon attack aganst the British line - a documented explanation on this subject. The French battalions were supposed to advance in column and then deploy into line to maximize firepower, but they were suprised by the British position, behind the crest and a slightly sunken road. In a matter of seconds, they found themselves under fire (from a line), still in column and in total confusion... Sergiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09620016305755247567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-8577038097156859872013-03-28T15:59:07.820+01:002013-03-28T15:59:07.820+01:00Sergio,
'Grande Armee uses Brigades' ... ...Sergio, <br />'Grande Armee uses Brigades' ... as does V&B and SN...<br />Do you disagree that a column formation has less impact than a line? Are we to assume that column was only used to maximise speed across the battlefield? <br />Really enjoying this discussion by the way!Battlescalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530786317286215390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-59893335455280881222013-03-28T15:44:07.037+01:002013-03-28T15:44:07.037+01:00Steve,
if we assume that formation is not essenti...Steve, <br />if we assume that formation is not essential to our rules then yes, your idea is sound and makes a lot of sense. Grande Armee uses Brigades and you do not care about their formation at all.<br />About the greater impact of columns, however, let me disagree with you... :)Sergiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09620016305755247567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-30932208785765935062013-03-28T15:37:26.991+01:002013-03-28T15:37:26.991+01:00Many grand tactical wargames of course 'assume...Many grand tactical wargames of course 'assume' troop formations (V&B, Grande Armee for instance) and even though I really do like Snappy Naps I'm not entirely convinced that actual formations on the tabletop are actually necessary.. this 'micro-management' seems a little odd to me when playing a game of this scale.<br />However, I do believe that formations per say should have an affect of sorts. This being the case would it be completely out of place to assume formations dependent upon the actual forces stance? For instance a corps on 'Hold' or 'Defend' orders would be considered to be in line and benefit from the added firepower that his formation offers (and similarly it's vulnerability to cavalry). Again, a corps in 'Attack' stance would be considered to be in column and hence move at greater speed and enjoy a greater impact upon contacting an enemy unit... Food for thought or am I just waffling again?Battlescalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530786317286215390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-16262897462706507542013-03-27T10:59:01.058+01:002013-03-27T10:59:01.058+01:00@leadaddicted: see my today's post :)
@Steve: ...@leadaddicted: see my today's post :)<br />@Steve: please remember that I'm not talking only about Napoleonics (during the SYW most movements were made in line). Apart from this, what you say makes sense, even if could be difficult to make a good rule out of it (for the same reason mentioned in the post).Sergiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09620016305755247567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-37954370099588159632013-03-27T00:06:28.996+01:002013-03-27T00:06:28.996+01:00The question of 'when' a unit can change f...The question of 'when' a unit can change formation should be dependent upon it's order. As I mentioned before, to my mind a unit (or Brigade / Batallion dependent upon the game scale) under 'Attack' orders is planning on closing to melee with the enemy at the fastest possible rate in the formation that has the appropriate 'punch'.. and that is column. I doubt that any planned attack order was envisaged using linear formations (these being more defensive than attacking formations).. However let's take an order that doesn't appear in SN 'Engage'. This order (to me anyway) suggests an order to engage an enemy and thereby 'pinning' them in position to stop their use elsewhere. It does not necessarily order the formations to close into hand to hand combat but merely engage in ranged fire. .... Getting back to formations and formation changes; A body of troops under the 'Engage' order should again advance in column but be allowed to form firing line at a certain distance from their intended target. I would probably play it as a column may change to line when it is within one full column move of it's target unit..... I'm rambling again but these things are worth suggesting I suppose!Battlescalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530786317286215390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-87348668572651985262013-03-26T22:20:54.998+01:002013-03-26T22:20:54.998+01:00A very interesting post on what a simple movement ...A very interesting post on what a simple movement can generate! Please, more on these themesleadaddictedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057487321031418687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-39382673729870629472013-03-26T15:53:06.750+01:002013-03-26T15:53:06.750+01:00Forcing units under an Attack order to do it in co...Forcing units under an Attack order to do it in column can be a part of the solution, but then you enter a new cathegory of problems (Linear tactics, when you can change formation to get maximum firepower and the like). Also, the helicopter view does not help, but without a Master (or an extensive use of the technology) it can just be slightly mitigated (blanks, dummies, and the like).. I'll soon write a new post about this.<br />Cheers Sergiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09620016305755247567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8386295610733468492.post-64182965022647595632013-03-26T15:23:00.183+01:002013-03-26T15:23:00.183+01:00This is an interesting point Sergio and I totally ...This is an interesting point Sergio and I totally agree with you. Many 'orders' cannot be followed to the letter as (as you rightly say) the battlefield constantly shifts and alters. The one and only 'rule' I use personally is that infantry under Attack orders must do so in column as to me it is highly unrealistic that units advance in line to simply maintain their most effective firepower. I think I'm right in saying (but don't hold me to this!)that as a rule of thumb most assaults were performed in column both for shock effect and speed of movement.... I do agree with you though, orders on our tabletop battlefields are tough to replicate in a realistic manner especially as we have a birds-eye view of all our units surroundings... I'll be interested to hear any suggestions as to how best to achieve this.<br />Battlescalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530786317286215390noreply@blogger.com